The command to "be fruitful and multiply" in today's culture

rekcor
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Lid geworden op: 15 aug 2005, 11:25

Re: The command to "be fruitful and multiply" in today's culture

Bericht door rekcor »

Alexander CD schreef:
rekcor schreef:But why would Jesus temp the Lord when He would jump of the temple? In my view: because He would act irresponsibly and put His life/body in jeopardy. So the one is the result of the other.
first a all the bible tells us.
and because in Jesus days the jews where looking for signs and miracles, and a king says I will not tempt the Lord by asking a sign, then the prophet says, a virgin shall be with child.
Today we have "christians" who are looking for miracles and signs, but Jesus tells us a evil and a adulterus generation aks for a sign. so looking for a sign is a sinn we should trust in the Lord.
I do not understand what this has to do with this discussion?
Alexander CD schreef:but that not secondary to be fruitfull. First things first, how can a christian perservate the world; by keeping Gods word pure, doing something different then the world, and that is, trust in the Almighty God.
I am sorry, but I do not understand what you mean by this...
Alexander CD
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Lid geworden op: 13 sep 2008, 18:44

Re: The command to "be fruitful and multiply" in today's culture

Bericht door Alexander CD »

You came up with this example, that Jesus didn’t jump from the temple, let see what scripture says;
5 Then the devil taketh him up into the holy city, and setteth him on a pinnacle of the temple,
6 And saith unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down: for it is written, He shall give his angels charge concerning thee: and in their hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone.
7 Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.

If Jesus would cast Himself down, angels would have come, Jesus body would not have been wounded, but something worse would have happened, this has to do with his mission, to do the will of His Vader!
If He had jumped, He had tempted the Lord, His faith wouldn’t have been real! But Jesus didn’t need that miracle.
Isaiah 7 vs 10-14.
King Ahaz will not ask for a sign by it he would tempt Lord.
Gods word came to Ahaz by the prophet Isaiah, Ahaz believed God and doesn’t want a sign as a prove for it.
So the Lord Jesus Christ believed Gods word, and He answered satan I don’t need to do it, I won’t tempt the Lord.
It was not that Jesus had to take care of His body( like we have to care for the creation) no He didn’t want to tempt the Lord.Moreover the LORD spake again unto Ahaz, saying,
11 Ask thee a sign of the LORD thy God; ask it either in the depth, or in the height above.
12 But Ahaz said, I will not ask, neither will I tempt the LORD.
13 And he said, Hear ye now, O house of David; Is it a small thing for you to weary men, but will ye weary my God also?
Matthew 12 vs 39

Then certain of the scribes and of the Pharisees answered, saying, Master, we would see a sign from thee.
39 But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas


True Christians believe Gods word, false Christians want a sign or miracle, (then they will believe, but they never believe because believing is a gift of God)
. Ye shall not tempt the LORD your God, as ye tempted him in Massah.
How did they tempted the Lord, by saying is God among us or not, they want to see something before the believed.
Once more I gave the meaning of the passage of matthew ch 4, it has nothing to do with our responsibility for our body or our duty for keeping the creation in shape.

The only way to do a service to creation is being a light in the darkness, shining the light of the gospel for humans.
rekcor
Berichten: 1981
Lid geworden op: 15 aug 2005, 11:25

Re: The command to "be fruitful and multiply" in today's culture

Bericht door rekcor »

I believe John Calvin explains it differently, an explanation I agree with (taken from http://www.ccel.org/ccel/calvin/calcom31.ix.xxxii.html)
John Calvin schreef:
Bible schreef:He will charge his angels concerning thee.
(...)

Though the promise, he will charge his angels concerning thee, (Psalm 91:11,) relates to all believers, yet it belongs peculiarly to Christ, (...)

[T]he fallacy lies in this, that he assigns a wandering and uncertain course to that guardianship of angels, which is only promised to the children of God, when they keep themselves within their bounds, and walk in their ways. (...)

Satan brings forward the guardianship of angels, for the purpose of advising Christ to put himself unnecessarily in danger, as if he would say: “If you expose yourself to death, contrary to the will of God, angels will protect your life.
So: we can trust God to take care of our lives, but only if we obey His will, if we keep his commands. We never should act irresponsibly thinking 'God will give us a happy end'.
John Calvin schreef:
Bible schreef:It is written, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.
God is tempted in many ways: but in this passage, the word tempt denotes the neglect of those means which he puts into our hands. Those who leave the means which God recommends, and resolve to make trial of his power and might, act as absurdly as if one were to cut off a man’s arms and hands, and then order him to work. In short, whoever desires to make an experiment of the divine power, when there is no necessity for it, tempts God by subjecting his promises to an unfair trial.
So, according to John Calvin, the point of this passage in scripture is twofold:
1) We can trust God: he will take care of us, like a shepherd takes care for his sheep.
2) But this is never an excuse to not use the means which he puts in our hands. He created us as intelligent, responsible persons.

Again, when I apply this to Gen 2:18, my conclusion is:
1) Yes, we may be fruitful, have children, because it is God who blesses us.
2) But yes, we should also be wise and take good care of His creation, which can mean (in case one is convinced the earth's ecosystem is suffering from too many people using too many resources): have less children than in biblical times.
Alexander CD
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Lid geworden op: 13 sep 2008, 18:44

Re: The command to "be fruitful and multiply" in today's culture

Bericht door Alexander CD »

rekcor schreef:So, according to John Calvin, the point of this passage in scripture is twofold:
1) We can trust God: he will take care of us, like a shepherd takes care for his sheep.
2) But this is never an excuse to not use the means which he puts in our hands. He created us as intelligent, responsible persons.
1 Yes
2 ok, but you pick and choose out of calvins words for your own use!
rekcor schreef:Again, when I apply this to Gen 2:18, my conclusion is:
1) Yes, we may be fruitful, have children, because it is God who blesses us.
2) But yes, we should also be wise and take good care of His creation, which can mean (in case one is convinced the earth's ecosystem is suffering from too many people using too many resources): have less children than in biblical times.



, You take one part of scripture and with your own explanation of an other part, you try to nullify the first, something with is never allowed in good biblical hermeneutics.

so my conclusion would be.
1. we must be fruitfull, if the Lord gives us the abbility!
2. we are intelligent and responsible people first toward our Creator, believing His word first and obeying it.
in case one is convinced the earth's ecosystem is suffering from too many people using too many resources
you might think its of fact but I call it a believe, even scientists disagree amongs each other.
As a christian I have to stay in Gods word only and believe and obey.


Trust and obey, for there no other way!
rekcor
Berichten: 1981
Lid geworden op: 15 aug 2005, 11:25

Re: The command to "be fruitful and multiply" in today's culture

Bericht door rekcor »

Alexander CD schreef:2 ok, but you pick and choose out of calvins words for your own use!
Ad 2: If you say things in a discussion like this, you should provide some evidence.
Alexander CD schreef:
rekcor schreef:Again, when I apply this to Gen 2:18, my conclusion is:
1) Yes, we may be fruitful, have children, because it is God who blesses us.
2) But yes, we should also be wise and take good care of His creation, which can mean (in case one is convinced the earth's ecosystem is suffering from too many people using too many resources): have less children than in biblical times.
, You take one part of scripture and with your own explanation of an other part, you try to nullify the first, something with is never allowed in good biblical hermeneutics.
If you formulate it like this ('nullify') you are right. But I am not nullifying Gen 2:18, the same as Jesus was not nullifying Psalm 91:11 when he replied to the devil that there are more principles in the bible than the one mentioned in Psalm 91 (in this case: that you should not tempt the Lord). I am just stating: YES, we should be fruitful according to Scripture, but YES we also should take care of God's creation.
Alexander CD schreef:
in case one is convinced the earth's ecosystem is suffering from too many people using too many resources
you might think its of fact but I call it a believe, even scientists disagree amongs each other.
As a christian I have to stay in Gods word only and believe and obey.
Ok, but this is a different topic. I am convinced we are making a mess of the earth's ecosystem. There are always scientists who disagree with the main stream, but I can assure you the general consensus in the scientific community is that the climate is going in the wrong direction because of us.

So for argument's sake, lets assume this huge majority of scientists is right.
Alexander CD
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Lid geworden op: 13 sep 2008, 18:44

Re: The command to "be fruitful and multiply" in today's culture

Bericht door Alexander CD »

rekcor schreef:If you formulate it like this ('nullify') you are right. But I am not nullifying Gen 2:18, the same as Jesus was not nullifying Psalm 91:11 when he replied to the devil that there are more principles in the bible than the one mentioned in Psalm 91 (in this case: that you should not tempt the Lord). I am just stating: YES, we should be fruitful according to Scripture, but YES we also should take care of God's creation.
When you on the one hand say we should have childeren and on the other hand we schouldn't, it doesn't go along verywell does it?
Even if you try to keep and positive attitude by using the word yes twice, in reality it means no for Gods command because you think having more childeren makes a greater mess of the ecosystem of the world, am I right?

What I try to do in life as a christian is to get my truth out of the bible not from the world because the world is always against the word of God its the only way she can.

If you try to live a live of thanksgiving to God, the only thing you can do ( I believe)is to live a life by faith( and by sight).
rekcor
Berichten: 1981
Lid geworden op: 15 aug 2005, 11:25

Re: The command to "be fruitful and multiply" in today's culture

Bericht door rekcor »

Alexander CD schreef:
rekcor schreef:If you formulate it like this ('nullify') you are right. But I am not nullifying Gen 2:18, the same as Jesus was not nullifying Psalm 91:11 when he replied to the devil that there are more principles in the bible than the one mentioned in Psalm 91 (in this case: that you should not tempt the Lord). I am just stating: YES, we should be fruitful according to Scripture, but YES we also should take care of God's creation.
When you on the one hand say we should have childeren and on the other hand we schouldn't, it doesn't go along verywell does it?
It does. You should have children, but just not too much (e.g. 2-3, the 'replacement' rate).
Alexander CD schreef: Even if you try to keep and positive attitude by using the word yes twice, in reality it means no for Gods command because you think having more childeren makes a greater mess of the ecosystem of the world, am I right?

What I try to do in life as a christian is to get my truth out of the bible not from the world because the world is always against the word of God its the only way she can.
If you really only get your truth from the bible, I suppose you never drive a car, use electricity nor discuss on forums using the internet? These are all 'truths' discovered by the same scientific method which you portray as being 'truth from the world'.
Alexander CD
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Lid geworden op: 13 sep 2008, 18:44

Re: The command to "be fruitful and multiply" in today's culture

Bericht door Alexander CD »

OK we leave part.

It is very clear that Calvin disagreesd with you when you read his commentary on genesis 38!

"And the thing which he did displeased the LORD." Less neatly the
Jews speak about this matter. I will contend myself with briefly
mentioning this, as far as the sense of shame allows to discuss it. It
is a horrible thing to pour out seed besides the intercourse of man and
woman. Deliberately avoiding the intercourse, so that the seed drops on
the ground, is double horrible.
For this means that one quenches the
hope of his family, and kills the son, which could be expected, before
he is born. This wickedness is now as severely as is possible condemned
by the Spirit, through Moses, that Onan, as it were, through a violent
and untimely birth, tore away the seed of his brother out the womb, and
as cruel as shamefully has thrown on the earth. Moreover he thus has, as
much as was in his power, tried to destroy a part of the human race.
When a woman in some way drives away the seed out the womb, through
aids, then this is rightly seen as an unforgivable crime.
Onan was
guilty of a similar crime, by defiling the earth with his seed, so that
Tamar would not receive a future inheritor.

Calvin sees birthcontrol as een unforgiveble crime!
I cannot believe that he would agree with you te way you use his commentary.
rekcor
Berichten: 1981
Lid geworden op: 15 aug 2005, 11:25

Re: The command to "be fruitful and multiply" in today's culture

Bericht door rekcor »

Alexander CD schreef:It is very clear that Calvin disagreesd with you when you read his commentary on genesis 38!
Interesting quote (really!). But I think I do not agree with Calvin - if we understand him correctly. I am not sure whether it is correct to apply Genesis 38 to this discussion. We must take into account the special position of Israel, and especially the line of Judah, because God choose to use them to bring forth His own Son Jesus.
Genesis 38 schreef:Then Judah said to Onan, “Go in to your brother’s wife and perform the duty of a brother-in-law to her, and raise up offspring for your brother.” But Onan knew that the offspring would not be his. So whenever he went in to his brother’s wife he would waste the semen on the ground, so as not to give offspring to his brother. And what he did was wicked in the sight of the Lord, and he put him to death also.
So I think the specific wickedness of Onan's deed was in the part made bold by me: he was rebellious and only wanted to have sex, but not take his responsibility as a brother to create offspring for his older brother.
rekcor
Berichten: 1981
Lid geworden op: 15 aug 2005, 11:25

Re: The command to "be fruitful and multiply" in today's culture

Bericht door rekcor »

After reading several commentaries on Gen 38 I think the more contemporary ones (the ones saying that Onan was punished because he was not obeying his father, not wanting to fulfill his duty as a brother, etc) are the most plausible.

But you still seem to think I do not agree that God asks us 'to be fruitful and multiply'. Like said before: I do agree with you on this point. The only difference is that I think there is more in the bible than that 'command' alone.
Alexander CD
Berichten: 1063
Lid geworden op: 13 sep 2008, 18:44

Re: The command to "be fruitful and multiply" in today's culture

Bericht door Alexander CD »

Reckor, I am very busy at the moment as soon I got time I 'll come back on it.
Eskon
Berichten: 6
Lid geworden op: 24 apr 2010, 18:11

Re: The command to "be fruitful and multiply" in today's culture

Bericht door Eskon »

Birthcontrol and eugenics.
It sounds nice but it has side effects going overboard like Nazi Germany did, and abortion today.
The best thing to do is get married if you find someone to share the rest of your life with.
Stop thinking and just do what is normal and kids will come eventually.
Unless something is wrong but take that as a (wo)men.
Birthcontrol planned that went wrong Ishmael(Ismaël)
Proverbs 16:9
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