Pagina 5 van 7

Re: Wel homo zijn, niet dóén, bekering mogelijk?

Geplaatst: 06 nov 2009, 19:05
door freek
denkertje21 schreef:
Marnix schreef: Waar ik nog steeds wel bang voor ben, is dat de uitleg waarom een homoseksuele relatie wel zou mogen, ontstaan is vanuit menselijke behoefte en wil. Wat heeft men laten spreken? De Bijbel? Of is men begonnen met redeneren vanuit eigen gevoel
Je omschrijft hier exact de reden waarom ik zelf niet of nog niet de vrijheid heb om een relatie aan te gaan. Het zou nu tussen God en mij in staan. Maar wie ben ik om te oordelen over anderen die wel die vrijheid ervaren. Ik ben daar gewoon minder stellig in dan de meesten van mijn mederefo's.

Ik bid altijd om geopende én om gesloten deuren, wetende dat Hij die deuren sluit en opent.
Maar het gaat mij veel te ver om te zeggen dat iemand die een homoseksuele relatie is aangegaan, niet bekeerd kan zijn.
Met jouw laatste opmerking kan ik meegaan. Misschien is dat niet per definitie zo. Maar tegelijkertijd veróórdeel jij het niet eens en zing je mee in het koor van het postmoderne denken: als iemand het als goed ervaart, dan mag het.
Stel dat iemand mij doodslaat. De dader kan eventueel best een kind van God zijn. Maar dan mag ik toch hopen dat jij die daad wél veroordeelt. En niet zoiets roept als: hij ervaarde de vrijheid om Freek dood te slaan.
Want, beste Denkertje, als wij homoseksuele daden als zonde zien, verschilt die zonde niet van moord of diefstal. God maakt wat dat betreft geen onderscheid. Je derft de heerlijkheid van God óf je ontvangt de genadegift van het eeuwige leven. Er is geen tussenweg.

Re: Wel homo zijn, niet dóén, bekering mogelijk?

Geplaatst: 06 nov 2009, 19:08
door Bert Mulder
mayflower schreef:
Bert Mulder schreef:Nu zal een christen wel in de zonde vallen, maar hij mag en kan daar niet in blijven liggen.
Mbt. homosexualiteit is het niet alleen dat hij daarin mag blijven liggen, want is volgens 1 Kor. 6:9-11, zelfs niet mogelijk !
Alsook niet hoereerders, afgodendienaars, overspelers, ontuchtigen, noch die bij mannen liggen, noch dieven, noch gierigaards, noch dronkaards, geen lasteraars, geen rovers

Re: Wel homo zijn, niet dóén, bekering mogelijk?

Geplaatst: 06 nov 2009, 19:17
door Auto
Laatst las ik ergens een blad en ook daar werd weer aangegeven op een aardige manier dat je er bijna de redenatie gaat geloven dat de Heere homosexualiteit voor de zondeval geschapen en dat het daarom een relatie in liefde kan na de zondeval. Ik moest er aan denken toen Freek verwees naar het postmodernisme waar we nu in leven, alles zo recht redeneren dat je er zelf in gaat geloven. En daar misbruiken we God ook nog voor. :bobo

Re: Wel homo zijn, niet dóén, bekering mogelijk?

Geplaatst: 06 nov 2009, 20:09
door Gian
Alle fundamentele dingen worden ter discussie gesteld. Het huwelijk, de schepping, opstanding. Ik kijk nergens meer van op.

Re: Wel homo zijn, niet dóén, bekering mogelijk?

Geplaatst: 06 nov 2009, 21:28
door jvdg
In diverse postings heeft Bert zijn visie kenbaar gemaakt over dit onderwerp.
En eerlijk gezegd was daar geen woord bij wat ik niet kon beamen.
Wat mij betreft mag dit topic worden gesloten, omdat naar mijn mening Bert de kern van het probleem heeft benoemd.
Bijna alle andere reacties waren herhalingen die in dit en eerdere topics al geplaatst zijn.

Ik kan haast niet geloven dat er nog gezichtspunten naar voren kunnen worden gebracht die ons op andere gedachten kunnen brengen.

De boodschap is toch, simpel weergegeven, dat voor elke zonde (behoudens die ene zonde) vergeving uit genade te verkrijgen is, mits men niet moedwillig doorgaat op dat pad der zonde.

In het kader van dit topic wens ik allen die met deze strijd te maken hebben, Gods genadiglijke ondersteuning toe in die zware strijd.

Re: Wel homo zijn, niet dóén, bekering mogelijk?

Geplaatst: 07 nov 2009, 08:24
door Bloempje28
Bert Mulder schreef:Verbaas me een beetje, dat met een onderwerp zoals deze we er 4 bladzijden nodig hebben...

Christus is op de wereld gekomen om zondaren zalig te maken. En iedereen die een beetje weg in de Bijbel is, ziet het rijtje van zondaren wel staan, die Zijn kruisdood machtig was te overkomen...

Adam, die meende God te kunnen zijn
Rachab, de hoer
Ruth, de afgodendienares
moordenaar aan het kruis
Saulus de christenvervolger en moordenaar
enz

Menen we nu werkelijk dat God onmachtig zijn zou, om enige zondaar zalig te maken? Want dan zou NIEMAND zalig worden.

Vooral ik niet, want ik ben de grootste der zondaren.

Maar in plaats van op anderen te zien, anderen de maat aan meten, laten we dat maar aan God overlaten. Want daar mogen we niet aankomen. Maar laten we onszelf nauw onderzoeken, of we in het geloof zijn.
Amen!

Re: Wel homo zijn, niet dóén, bekering mogelijk?

Geplaatst: 07 nov 2009, 08:39
door Bloempje28
Afgewezen schreef:
denkertje21 schreef:
Afgewezen schreef:Ja, dat mogen wij zeggen. Want zonde is zonde, ook al is niet iedereen overtuigd door de zeven Bijbelplaatsen en de rest wat de Bijbel erover zegt.
Toch om het duidelijk te krijgen:
Dan mogen wij dus ook zeggen dat al die predikanten, inclusief predikanten in de GB (want alleen daar heb ik directe gesprekken mee gevoerd), die er anders over denken en onder bepaalde omstandigheden een complete relatie tussen twee mensen van het zelfde geslacht niet afkeuren, ook niet bekeerd kunnen zijn?
Nee, dat zeg ik niet. Wel dat dezen dwalen. Maar het is te hopen dat ze wel zouden terugschrikken voor de concrete daad en het laten voortduren daarvan.
Verder is het zo dat als we kwade vruchten waarnemen, we van een kwade boom mogen uitgaan. Als er onverhoopt toch nog iets goeds in de boom zit dat wij niet waarnemen, is dat voor verantwoordelijkheid van degene die de boze vruchten voortbrengt, niet voor degene die deze waarneemt en daar een terechte Bijbelse conclusie aan verbindt.
We moeten de zonde (het praktiseren van homo's) op grond van God afwijzen, net als vreemdgaan, naar de hoeren gaan, pornografie bekijken, roddelen en noem maar op.... maar wij mogen NOOIT zeggen dat homo's die praktiseren niet bekeerd kunnen zijn! Wie zo'n uitspraak durft te doen, speelt voor God! Die oordeelt met als basis gedrag van mensen. Maar hoe onterecht is dat? Wij doen zelf ook elke dag zonde ook al is het bedekt... En is het niet zo dat ook veel denkbeelden in de kerk voor waar aangenomen worden, maar totaal niet bijbels zijn? Zo is in sommige kerken praktiserende homofilie 'normaal' geworden, waardoor kinderen met dit denkbeeld worden opgevoed! Zo ontstaat er een dwaling.... maar is God niet sterk genoeg om door een dwaling heen toch te bekeren? anders zou de hele RKK voor de reformatie verloren zijn gegaan.... nou dat kan er bij mij niet in!
Weer terug naar David... hij deed zonde met Batseba (dit duurde minstens een jaar! Aangezien zij ook nog 9 maanden zwanger is geweest, misschien wel langer... wij weten niet hoe snel zij zwanger was)... verkeerde vruchten... maar ook een verkeerde boom??? Hij was duidelijk een kind van God. Dus de boom was goed, maar toch zondigde hij lang!
We kunnen niet altijd in het gedrag zien wat er in het hart leeft en God ziet het HART aan en niet het gedrag.... al zal Hij verdriet hebben over de zonde! En zullen wij ons leven gaan heiligen als wij Hem leren kennen.... maar de zonde blijft ons aankleven de rest van ons leven... als ik sommige citaten lees lijkt het net alsof we een zondeloos leven gaan lijden als wij God leren kennen... of dat we alle dagen met heel veel liefde strijden... zo is het echt niet! Als dat zo zou zijn dan zou niemand zekerheid in het geloof kunnen hebben, want iedereen blijft zonde doen. Er zijn tijden dat het allemaal leeg en koud is.... en dat we de moed niet vinden om elke dag de tijd te nemen om tot Hem te gaan... maar daar hangt onze zaligheid gelukkig niet vanaf.... vertrouwen wij (ook in donkere en koude tijden) erop dat Zijn bloed genoeg is??? Dan geloof je werkelijk! Als je niks voelt, en toch vertrouwt.

Re: Wel homo zijn, niet dóén, bekering mogelijk?

Geplaatst: 07 nov 2009, 08:52
door Bloempje28
mayflower schreef:
Bert Mulder schreef:Nu zal een christen wel in de zonde vallen, maar hij mag en kan daar niet in blijven liggen.
Mbt. homosexualiteit is het niet alleen dat hij daarin mag blijven liggen, want is volgens 1 Kor. 6:9-11, zelfs niet mogelijk !
Kom nou! Je bedoelt dat het niet mogelijk is voor hen om zalig te worden? De genade van Christus is voor zondaren (er staat net bij uitgezonderd homo's)! Heb je de rest van de tekst goed gelezen??? Er staan genoeg andere zonden bij! En zijn wij zelf niet schuldig aan de andere zonden? Zondaren kunnen in het koninkrijk van God niet komen tenzij dat zij van nieuws geboren worden! Dan komt Christus in de plaats van de zondaar... anders zou nooit iemand kunnen zalig worden als het op ons gedrag vast zou komen te liggen. Zo van: ik ben homo, doe het niet.... dus nu kan ik Gods koninkrijk sneller/wel ingaan??? Dat gaat er bij mij niet in. De moordenaar aan het kruis mocht ook ingaan!
Er zijn ALTIJD dingen in ons leven die niet kunnen, maar waar we niet zo'n last van hebben. Heb jij je angel in het vlees al gevonden of heb je er geen?

Re: Wel homo zijn, niet dóén, bekering mogelijk?

Geplaatst: 07 nov 2009, 12:34
door Afgewezen
Bloempje28 schreef:We moeten de zonde (het praktiseren van homo's) op grond van God afwijzen, net als vreemdgaan, naar de hoeren gaan, pornografie bekijken, roddelen en noem maar op.... maar wij mogen NOOIT zeggen dat homo's die praktiseren niet bekeerd kunnen zijn! Wie zo'n uitspraak durft te doen, speelt voor God! Die oordeelt met als basis gedrag van mensen. Maar hoe onterecht is dat? Wij doen zelf ook elke dag zonde ook al is het bedekt... En is het niet zo dat ook veel denkbeelden in de kerk voor waar aangenomen worden, maar totaal niet bijbels zijn? Zo is in sommige kerken praktiserende homofilie 'normaal' geworden, waardoor kinderen met dit denkbeeld worden opgevoed! Zo ontstaat er een dwaling.... maar is God niet sterk genoeg om door een dwaling heen toch te bekeren? anders zou de hele RKK voor de reformatie verloren zijn gegaan.... nou dat kan er bij mij niet in!
Weer terug naar David... hij deed zonde met Batseba (dit duurde minstens een jaar! Aangezien zij ook nog 9 maanden zwanger is geweest, misschien wel langer... wij weten niet hoe snel zij zwanger was)... verkeerde vruchten... maar ook een verkeerde boom??? Hij was duidelijk een kind van God. Dus de boom was goed, maar toch zondigde hij lang!
We kunnen niet altijd in het gedrag zien wat er in het hart leeft en God ziet het HART aan en niet het gedrag.... al zal Hij verdriet hebben over de zonde! En zullen wij ons leven gaan heiligen als wij Hem leren kennen.... maar de zonde blijft ons aankleven de rest van ons leven... als ik sommige citaten lees lijkt het net alsof we een zondeloos leven gaan lijden als wij God leren kennen... of dat we alle dagen met heel veel liefde strijden... zo is het echt niet! Als dat zo zou zijn dan zou niemand zekerheid in het geloof kunnen hebben, want iedereen blijft zonde doen. Er zijn tijden dat het allemaal leeg en koud is.... en dat we de moed niet vinden om elke dag de tijd te nemen om tot Hem te gaan... maar daar hangt onze zaligheid gelukkig niet vanaf.... vertrouwen wij (ook in donkere en koude tijden) erop dat Zijn bloed genoeg is??? Dan geloof je werkelijk! Als je niks voelt, en toch vertrouwt.
Toen David in zonde met Bathseba leefde, gedroeg hij zich niet als een kind van God, inderdaad. Als iemand toen had gezegd "nou, dat is iemand die God niet kent", had hij het er zelf naar gemaakt.
Verder moet je niet proberen om de helderheid van de Bijbel te vertroebelen met allerlei 'grensgevallen', waarbij het toch ook allemaal nog 'net kan' en zo. En suggereer ook niet dat degenen die jij bestrijdt, zichzelf als zondeloos beschouwen of geen boezemzonde kennen, etc. Allemaal niet relevant. Het gaat erom wat het Woord zegt.
Laat staan wat er staat en dan is het duidelijk dat een gelovige niet in de zonde kan blijven leven, wat iemand met een homoseksuele relatie wél doet.

Re: Wel homo zijn, niet dóén, bekering mogelijk?

Geplaatst: 07 nov 2009, 13:08
door PvS
Afgewezen schreef:
Bloempje28 schreef:We moeten de zonde (het praktiseren van homo's) op grond van God afwijzen, net als vreemdgaan, naar de hoeren gaan, pornografie bekijken, roddelen en noem maar op.... maar wij mogen NOOIT zeggen dat homo's die praktiseren niet bekeerd kunnen zijn! Wie zo'n uitspraak durft te doen, speelt voor God! Die oordeelt met als basis gedrag van mensen. Maar hoe onterecht is dat? Wij doen zelf ook elke dag zonde ook al is het bedekt... En is het niet zo dat ook veel denkbeelden in de kerk voor waar aangenomen worden, maar totaal niet bijbels zijn? Zo is in sommige kerken praktiserende homofilie 'normaal' geworden, waardoor kinderen met dit denkbeeld worden opgevoed! Zo ontstaat er een dwaling.... maar is God niet sterk genoeg om door een dwaling heen toch te bekeren? anders zou de hele RKK voor de reformatie verloren zijn gegaan.... nou dat kan er bij mij niet in!
Weer terug naar David... hij deed zonde met Batseba (dit duurde minstens een jaar! Aangezien zij ook nog 9 maanden zwanger is geweest, misschien wel langer... wij weten niet hoe snel zij zwanger was)... verkeerde vruchten... maar ook een verkeerde boom??? Hij was duidelijk een kind van God. Dus de boom was goed, maar toch zondigde hij lang!
We kunnen niet altijd in het gedrag zien wat er in het hart leeft en God ziet het HART aan en niet het gedrag.... al zal Hij verdriet hebben over de zonde! En zullen wij ons leven gaan heiligen als wij Hem leren kennen.... maar de zonde blijft ons aankleven de rest van ons leven... als ik sommige citaten lees lijkt het net alsof we een zondeloos leven gaan lijden als wij God leren kennen... of dat we alle dagen met heel veel liefde strijden... zo is het echt niet! Als dat zo zou zijn dan zou niemand zekerheid in het geloof kunnen hebben, want iedereen blijft zonde doen. Er zijn tijden dat het allemaal leeg en koud is.... en dat we de moed niet vinden om elke dag de tijd te nemen om tot Hem te gaan... maar daar hangt onze zaligheid gelukkig niet vanaf.... vertrouwen wij (ook in donkere en koude tijden) erop dat Zijn bloed genoeg is??? Dan geloof je werkelijk! Als je niks voelt, en toch vertrouwt.
Toen David in zonde met Bathseba leefde, gedroeg hij zich niet als een kind van God, inderdaad. Als iemand toen had gezegd "nou, dat is iemand die God niet kent", had hij het er zelf naar gemaakt.
Verder moet je niet proberen om de helderheid van de Bijbel te vertroebelen met allerlei 'grensgevallen', waarbij het toch ook allemaal nog 'net kan' en zo. En suggereer ook niet dat degenen die jij bestrijdt, zichzelf als zondeloos beschouwen of geen boezemzonde kennen, etc. Allemaal niet relevant. Het gaat erom wat het Woord zegt.
Laat staan wat er staat en dan is het duidelijk dat een gelovige niet in de zonde kan blijven leven, wat iemand met een homoseksuele relatie wél doet.
Die zijn overtredingen bedekt, zal niet voorspoedig zijn; maar die ze bekent en laat, zal barmhartigheid verkrijgen (Spr. 28:13).

Re: Wel homo zijn, niet dóén, bekering mogelijk?

Geplaatst: 07 nov 2009, 13:31
door Alexander CD
Dit is een goed artikel, helaas in engels.

Is Homosexuality Really A Sin?

As far as the laws of modern society, it may not be. But as far as the law of God, which is the paramount law that true Christians are concerned with, it shouldn't even be debatable. For the serious Bible believer (keyword being, serious) any attempted defense for this sexual orientation would appear silly, or even laughable if it weren't so serious. God's Word on the matter is crystal clear, and it is not subject to either private interpretations, or the social or political climate of the day.

Leviticus 18:22-23

"Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.
Neither shalt thou lie with any beast to defile thyself therewith: neither shall any woman stand before a beast to lie down thereto: it is confusion."
God plainly calls it an abomination, a disgusting act that is abhorrent to God. It is declared along with other unnatural acts such as sodomy and bestiality. God commanded a severe punishment upon anyone who would indulge in this abomination.
Leviticus 20:13

"If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them."
Can Homosexuals be Christians? This precept of God is unambiguous, concise, and plainly stated. And it bridges on the nonsensical to hear some people attempt to defeat the creator's condemnation of homosexuality. According to the law of God, this activity of a man lying sexually with another man, is a [towebah] or abomination. In other words, it's something that is blatantly unclean and disgusting to God. This Hebrew word literally means something loathsome or detestable. So if we are to be led by the authority of the Holy scriptures, we must accept that homosexuality is something that is unnatural and abhorrent to God because it is against order of creation. Anyone attempting to make a defense of this act by claiming that it is not really sin, or that this merely addresses ritualistic abomination, has no real concept of the biblical principle that "God's Word is not subject to our private or personal interpretations." In our day the plague of homosexuality is sweeping over the world like a malignant disease, and it lashes out against every moral, lawful, and chaste fiber of faithfulness and obedience to God. Yet instead of warning against this wickedness, most Christians are silent as it gains respectability, and even acceptability in some Churches. Instead of outrage, Christian pastors are speaking about toning it down, compassion, and of our need for tolerance. But these are euphemistic words for capitulation and compromise. In order to remain faithful to God, Christians must not be deceived, but continue to preach and teach against the growing apostasies such as homosexuality, divorce, fornication, abortion, adultery, and all forms of ungodly immorality. For these are perilous and deceptive times in which we live. The trial of our faith makes manifest the Godly, and those who simply have a form of Godliness.
2nd Timothy 3:1-5

"This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.
For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,
Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,
Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away."
In great numbers people are lovers of themselves (what we today call humanism), covetous or materialistic, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good, traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures (hedonism) more than lovers of God. It is in this arena of degradation that we see not only the growth and tacit acceptance of homosexuality, but also the spurious denials by many that this is even a sin against God. Even though the law of God plainly declares that "If a man lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination," there are those who would remove God's words from the Bible with lips dripping with the juices of nullification. Nevertheless, God is not mocked, and transparent justifications will hide no one in the day of vengeance.

Does This Verse Only Condemn "Practicing" Homosexuality?

There has grown a school of thought in some Church circles that hypothesizes that Leviticus chapter twenty at best describes "practicing homosexuality," and not homosexual ontology. But this defense is without scriptural validation. Moreover, saying that there are non-practicing homosexuals is akin to saying that there are non-practicing harlots, or non-practicing murderers. Why would any Christian want to call herself a harlot if they are no longer selling themselves? The answer of course is that, they wouldn't. It's really a ridiculous concept, and yet it has found favor in many Churches. There are those who want to be called Christian, but who also insist on retaining the title of Homosexual, or of being called a gay Christian. The reasons they give may vary, but it really all boils down to their attachment to the concept. i.e., though they profess to be of Christ, they really don't want to completely let go or surrender their life to Him. Keeping the name allows them to partially hold on to the delusion that it's really not a bad thing to be a homosexual. Is a non-practicing homosexual still guilty of homosexuality? Of course he is. Because the sin is in the very "thought process," not just the physical act itself. Would a Christian who has an adulterous thought pop into his head, then call himself a Christian adulterer? God forbid! Likewise, there is no such thing as a homosexual Christian. The mere fact that someone would have a desire to retain the title homosexual, while professing their new life in Christ, indicates that they have not yet truly repented of their sin. It is a confession that they desire to retain certain name rights to that former lifestyle.

The modernist would reply, "What's in a name?" I would answer that one who desires a name that signifies an abomination to God, must question "what's in his heart." For the very title homosexual delineates a sin against God, and illustrates a continuing mindset that is adversarial. This is the deception of our day that goes unchallenged. The wretched "political correctness" within our society wherein man looks upon homosexuality as not so much a deliberate sin, as it is an involuntary lifestyle. But a non-practicing homosexual is just as much in sin against God as a practicing one would be. For it is self-evident that he has not truly repented of his sin wherein he would no longer "desire" to be called homosexual. He doesn't yet understand that he cannot take upon himself the name of Christ, and also retain the name Homosexual. The terms are as mutually exclusive as the terms abominable and righteous. It's like saying that you are a "Christian Abomination," or that you are a "Christian Whore." No one would say those things because they realize that this type terminology is contradictory to Christianity, not something that can go hand in hand with it. Likewise, we cannot claim to be "Christian Homosexuals" because it is a contradiction in terms.


Will The Homosexual Be Saved?

According to some liberal philosophers in the Church, yes. But not according to the inerrant Word of God. Scripture states quite plainly that those who lay with man as with womankind, shall not enter the Kingdom of Heaven. Those are God's Words, not mine. There are those who choose to ignore it, or to make up their own laws and rules of doctrine for the Church, but if we will "receive" God's Word of truth, there can be no mistaking what God has said. If we are honest with ourselves, there can be no deceiving by rationalizing, or by nullification of His Words.

1st Corinthians 6:9

"...be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the Kingdom of God."
The caution by God that we, "be not deceived" alerts us that we should be aware that there will be those who will try and deceive us by claiming that these people "shall" inherit the Kingdom of Heaven. i.e., that adulterers, drunkards, and homosexuals can be Christian and inherit the kingdom. God says no, be not deceived, they shall not inherit it. And for Christians today to claim that they can (as so many do), is both confusion, and a denial of God's Words.
Of course, this does not mean that someone who was formerly an adulterer, drunkard, or homosexual, cannot ever in a period of weakness fall back into one of those sins. What it means is that they are a new creation whose desire will now be to do the will of God, and not their own. Thus they are no longer adulterers, homosexuals, or drunkards. So even if they should stumble and sin, they will no longer live in that sin, and their sins will be forgiven because they have an advocate in heaven, and His Spirit in themselves. Thus they have no desire to be called adulterers, homosexuals, or drunkards, for they understand that old things are passed away when they are set at liberty, and Grace is not license to continue in sin.

Galatians 5:13

"For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another."
How shall they that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? How can they who are called to grace and liberty use that to continue in sin? They will no longer live comfortably in their sin, but will eschew it, confess it, repent of it, and understand in their heart that it is evil. This will become something that which they want to distance themselves from, not keep near. They will not have the mindset that it is something they want to retain "name rights" to.
And indeed, I have heard those who arrogantly state:

"I don't practice, but I'm a Homosexual, and proud of it. And I am a Christian, no matter what anyone says."
With all due respect, this is merely another example of the insidious delusion of Satan. Is Homosexuality a sin? To be sure, it doesn't matter what I say, or what any other man says. But what does matter is what God says. And without judging, I'm afraid that the sad truth is, this man was probably no more a Christian, than Judas was in being one of the Apostles, or that cult leaders are in calling on the name of the Lord. They all delude themselves because they lack the spirit of truth. We can be former thieves, former pornographers, and former homosexuals, but we cannot be those things and be Christian also. A Christian is a "new" creation sealed with the Holy Spirit. And so they would no longer want to be called that which is abominable to God. Rather than a source of pride, this title would be an abomination to them, the same as they are to God.
Moreover, those pastors who teach such contradicting doctrines to homosexuals, deceive a great many of them into thinking they can have peace of mind, when in fact there is no peace with God. Thus, these pastors have the greater sin. For to say that a homosexual can inherit the kingdom is not only "dangerous" (as it gives those looking for an excuse, a false sense of security), but it is also false prophecy. According to God's very own Words in 1st Corinthians 6:9, homosexuals will not inherit the kingdom of heaven. But they need not fret, because former homosexuals, who have cast that name aside for the name of Christ, can.

Colossians 3:9-10

"Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds;
And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:"
The casting of former things behind us is an integral part of the Salvation process. And unfortunately, that is what many professing Christians and Pastors do not understand.

Some Say That Word Simply Describes Temple Prostitution

The word in 1st Corinthians 6:9 which is translated "Abusers of themselves with mankind" in the KJV, is actually the Greek word [arsenokoites], meaning "laying with a male." In the literal, to "bed with a male." This is the very same sin which God called an abomination Leviticus 20:13. This term is from the Greek words [arsen], meaning male, and [koite] meaning bed (from the root [keimai], meaning lay). And combined in this context, they illustrate the sense of lying with a man sexually. God says there, unambiguously, that these shall not inherit the Kingdom of God. I didn't say that, God said that. And He said it as plain as it can be said. The half-baked theory that the objection may simply describe Temple Prostitution is a cocktail of conjecture and supposition. It's not an interpretation that has its foundation in the pertinent scriptures at all, it's a theory by those who study cultures that is totally unsubstantiated by Holy Canon. Clearly, the word there means to "lay a male". And for anyone to take that clearly understandable word, and inject it with an extra biblical self-serving interpretation that it really means men who sell themselves for money, is tortuous of the verse. In biblical terms, it is called "wresting" or twisting the scriptures to make them conform to man's own ideas. The truth is, it says not one word, not even one iota, jot or tittle about the Temple, nor about selling, nor about prostitution. To presuppose and then inject this secular idea into scripture, is in the final analysis "adding to God's Word." Not to mention the fact that we don't understand scripture in a vacuum, and this is not the only passage that condemns males lying with males, or what is today commonly called "Homosexuality." Every verse that speaks about this practice would have to be wrested in order to support such a conclusion.

But this is the kind of rationalization and self-justification that goes into the defense of breaking God's laws. It always starts (like the serpent in the garden with the words, "..hath God Said?" From there, Satan will proceed to sow the seed of doubt about what God actually said, and if He actually means it. Men are quick to "read into" the scriptures and inject their own biased agenda about what scripture means (though it didn't say). Because they he can cast doubt on the Word of God really meaning, "men who lay with men," then those who want to believe what is right in their own eyes will have an excuse to formulate their own rebellious views about homosexuality. And in their minds they can do so without having to blatantly call God's Word a lie. In self-justification they can declare, "..it's not that we don't believe God, it's just that we think we can interpret this another way." i.e., as if the biblical view is only your opinion.


We Are All Sinners, Aren't Homosexuals Just Sinners Too?

Yes, this is true. But Christians are not Homosexuals. Neither are they Whores, Thieves, Murderers and Drunkards. The distinction is that these are not terms for Christians. There is a difference between being a homosexual, and being a sinner, and it's not just semantics. We may fall into sin, but we will not any longer live that former lifestyle. Because of the Spirit that dwells within us, we have an earnest desire to repent or turn away from it. Not a desire to retain the title in order to keep some "vicarious" pleasure in it, but to make it as "dead" to us. This will be our sincere desire when we become true Christians. Those very verses we have read illustrate just this particular principle.

1st Corinthians 6:9-11

"Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God".
And such WERE some of you, but not anymore. That's the mindset of a true Christian. Not one of, "I still want to be called Homosexual," but one of, "Such as I was once, but not anymore." They are washed now, that they may not continue being a homosexual, even though they might fall into that sin, they will not live it. They will repent of it and grow in grace. That is the mind of Christ, and the mindset of a true Christian.
Romans 6:1-4

"What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life".
We walk in newness of life because the old man is passed away. How can we walk in newness of life while calling ourselves harlots still, or drunkards still, or homosexuals still? Jesus, through His Spirit, can help the homosexual stop living in this destructive lifestyle. He can remove the sensual desire for a person of the same sex. But homosexuals will never understand this truth if professed Christians keep telling them that they can remain a homosexual, and still be a Christian.
Hebrews 11:6

"But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him".
We witness to them that becoming a Christian means that we have had a new birth (2nd Corinthians 5:17). God not only forgives us and cleanses us from all unrighteousness (1st John 1:9), but he give us His Spirit, that gives us the strength to not sin that way anymore (Romans 8:26). Jesus wonderfully forgave the women caught in adultery, but He also told her, "..go and sin no more." (John 8:11). Truth, inspires change.

But The Word Homosexual Is Not In Scripture

The fact is, the actual word homosexuality is merely a modern tradition. It is simply a two-bit word describing the vile affections of men who lay with men, and women who lay with women. It doesn't have to be in scripture, because what the word represents is in scripture. Just as the word embezzlement is a traditional two-bit word which means stealing. Annulment is a traditional two-bit word meaning divorce. Abortion is a traditional two-bit word meaning killing babies. These words are euphemisms generally devised to hide or cloak the harsh reality of their true meaning. They are used so that it makes whatever it defines somewhat easier for people to accept. That's why the term has even changed again to "gay." I mean really, who's going to accept it if we say, "I'm going to kill my child before it's born." That's why it is replaced with the word "abortion," or now even less harsh words. But God has no such political agendas, and He calls these sins exactly what they are. He calls homosexuality, vile affections, men lying with men, and women with women, doing that which is unseemly and abominable. That's what God calls it. Simply claiming the english word Homosexual is not in the scriptures does not loose man from the laws of God against the practice. We can eliminate the word Homosexual all together and call it what the Bible does. But in our day, it's not considered politically correct, or being a loving Christian (gasp) to call anything by the term the scriptures give it. Nevertheless, it may not be politically correct, but it is Biblically incorrect to say anything less than the scriptures say.


Some Churches Say The Homosexual Gene Is A God Given Inherited Nature

That is not only a ludicrous statement, it is a blasphemous statement. Heresy in the Church is almost as old as dirt, and it's growing by leaps and bounds today. It's not what some Churches or scientists say that counts, it's what God says that is our authority. Homosexuality is not a nature that men are born with (except it is the nature of sin), it embodies all that is "AGAINST" the nature of God. These people are brainwashed by an arrogant immoral society, and have totally forsaken God's Word for the wisdom of the world. But consider that real wisdom is in what God says. And He declares it is not natural, it is just the opposite.

Romans 1:26-27

"For this cause God gave them up to vile affections: for even their women did change the Natural use into that which is Against Nature!
And likewise also the men, leaving the Natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one towards another; Men with Men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompense of their error which was meet."
And so we see once again that God's Word is 180 degrees opposite of what the world, wise in their own conceits, claim is true. The homosexual lust in people is not born of his God given nature, it is not an alternative lifestyle, and it is not natural affection. It is just as God says, it's vile [atimia] or disgraceful affections, and it is unseemly [aschemosune], indecent or shameful behavior. Who are we to believe? As saith the scripture, "let God be true and every man a liar" -Romans 3:4. A man has a natural nature, and so does the woman. To pervert that nature is an abomination to God, a grievous sin against his created order.
Deuteronomy 22:5

"The woman shall not wear that which pertaineth unto a man, neither shall a man put on a woman's garment: for all that do so are abomination unto the LORD thy God."
The specific scriptural text forbidding cross dressing, the visible perversion of homosexuality, shows us quite plainly that God looks upon these unnatural acts, not as frivolous, an alternative lifestyle, or as harmless fun, but as an abomination. The fact is, God has always been crystal clear on the matter, it is man who tries to distort God's Words for his own selfish purposes. It is society who tries to make up their own rules and laws governing what is natural and what is not. To the rationalization that, "it's just how some people are born," God says, be not deceived! It's not natural affection, it's not God given nature, it's sin against God and nature. And it's illogical and irrational for anyone professing to be a Christian to claim that God gave this nature to some people. Those who want to insist homosexuality is natural or God given, do so at their own peril. But as for me and my house, we believe God when He says it is ungodly, unnatural, and vile. The doctrines and rationalizations going on in the Church today about homosexuality would have been unbelievable just fifty years ago, but now so much of the Church is depraved that it's considered "Christian love" to encourage them, and an act of compassion to not tell them of the wages of such sin. But nothing could be further from the truth. Homosexuals are what they are because of their sin nature. If I am a habitual fornicator, can I claim I'm that way because I have a gene which makes me lust after women? Most certainly not, because sin is in all of us and cannot be excused by simply saying it's in the genes. Do I have a gene that makes me a drunkard? Society would say so. Do I have a gene that makes me a criminal? Sure, all things are possible when you throw the Bible out the window in favor of scientists' declarations. The truth is, we all have the gene. It's called, "the stain of sin," and it has been passed down from generation to generation since the fall. Anything more than that, is self-serving rationalization.

Are Heterosexuals, Heterosexuals, Because Of Their Sin Nature Too?

Some people have attempted to equate Homosexual activity with Heterosexual activity. This of course is the obligatory "Straw Man." It seems that there is one in almost every argument. But equating heterosexuality to homosexuality, is like equating sexual activity, with fornication. It can't righteously be done. One is always a sin, and the other may not be. A heterosexual relationship is not a sin so long as it's done lawfully in the bounds of marriage. While homosexual relationships are sin at "anytime." Even non-practicing homosexual relationships are sin because (like adultery) the sin has it's genesis in the mind. And so to equate the two is like comparing apples and oranges. One is always unnatural and vile affection in God's eyes, and the other is a natural union between a man and woman who are married. Now if they were to equate homosexuality with fornication (unlawful sexual activity) then they would have a case. But that would defeat their purpose in trying to justify the act. But to equate it with heterosexual activity is flat out ridiculous.

1st Peter 3:1-4-7

"This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.
For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,
without natural affection, truce breakers, false ACCUSERS, incontinent, fierce, despisers of THOSE that are good. Traitors, heady, high minded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
having a FORM of Godliness, but denying the POWER thereof: from such turn away."
I.e., those who claim the name of Christ, and yet who will deny God's Word, are to be expected in life, and even more so in the latter days of great tribulation. From such, faithful Christians are commanded to turn away, as these perilous times were not unforeseen by God.

Why Then Are Some Churches Teaching This?

Two things that we should remember is that all those who call themselves by the name of Christ, or of Christ (Christian), are not truly Christian. And all false Churches and gospels have the distinct ability to totally ignore God's written Word about anything that they choose. They do so in order that they may follow the teachings that they want to follow. Whether doctrines of homosexuality, or of tacitly condoning abortion, women pastors, charismatics, signs and wonders, or any other false gospel, there will always be those who support some unbiblical doctrine. And it usually boils down to the same common denominator. They all "reject" the accumulative written Word of God that says one thing, in order that they can take something out of context and believe what is right in their own eyes. Whether it is what their Church leaders say, or what society deems appropriate, or what they want, there are always ways around scripture. And usually it's by saying that, "this verse doesn't really mean what is written."

Jude 1:7

"Even as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire."
The sin of unlawful unnatural sex, or men going after strange flesh, is clearly prohibited. The Greek word translated strange is [heteros] meaning other, or different. i.e., man not "naturally" going after woman, but after "other" or strange flesh. Indeed the city of Sodom is where we get the word Sodomy. And God declares here that Sodom is set forth as an example of the wages of this unnatural fornication of going after strange flesh. From the old to the New testament, the very same warning of this city as an example is repeated by inspiration of God.
2nd Peter 2:6

"And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly.."
Clearly, the example of Sodom is for us who live today, that we might read of it and learn, and remember why God judged them. Sadly, many Churches today have forgotten or either refuse to be taught by God's lessons. They read, but they don't "spiritually" hear what they read. They look, but they don't "spiritually" see what they are looking at. They have no fear of God that they would receive His Word of truth that homosexuality is an abomination God. Their conscience is seared so that they can effectively completely wrest or ignore scripture without any pangs of guilt. They lack the true love of God that 1st John 5:2-3 declares is in keeping His Word. The love wherein there is an earnest desire to not only seek truth, but the humility to look at themselves honestly. They lack the reverential fear of God that His Word informs us is, "The Beginning of Wisdom."
When quoting God's Word, word for word, how many times have you heard the protest, "..well that's just your interpretation." This is the power of the great deceiver, Satan. When man has no reverential fear, or conscience that would bother him when contradicting what God says, he is as lost in the wilderness. Many are so brainwashed and indoctrinated that denying the Word of God doesn't even register "as a denial" anymore. In other words, a spiritual blindness where they don't even look upon the Word being witnessed to them as God's Word, they look upon it as something that is coming from you personally. Something they can try and get around by any means necessary. It's merely an abstract apart from the Bible that is in the way of their views. And this is all because they don't really know God in the personal sense. They may know God intellectually, and may profess faith, but they deny God and faith by their action in refusing to keep His Word. As scripture says, having a form of Godliness, but denying the power thereof, which is the Holy Spirit. Like clouds with no water, carried about of winds, they cannot retain (keep) God's Word and this is why they can support homosexuality. The true Christian has the Spirit-led desire to preserve the Word of God faithfully, and that means not denying what it says for their own sakes. Being Biblically conservative was the norm for hundreds of years, but in our day it has fallen by the wayside.

Luke 8:15

"But that on the good ground are they, which in a HONEST and good heart, having heard the Word KEEP it, and bring forth fruit with patience."
In fact the very word "keep" that is used here means to 'hold fast,' to guard against loss, to preserve that it not suffer loss. True Christians are conservative with regards to scripture, for every true believer keeps (Preserves) God's word faithfully, by not denying it. They may sin, but they don't deny it is sin. They repent and thus keep or preserve God's Word as faithful. King David is a good example of this.
Many people call themselves by the name of Christ, and they have the notion that they are true believers, but God tells us that unless they are preservers of the Word of God, they are simply kidding themselves. They don't really know the Lord at all. And by the way, that's not "my word," this is what God says.

1st John 2:3-5

"And hereby we do KNOW that we know Him, IF we KEEP His commandments.
He that saith, I know Him, and KEEPETH NOT His commandments, is a Liar, and the truth is not in Him.
But whoso keepeth His word, in him verily is the Love of God perfected: HEREBY know we that we are in Him."
This is why some can make statements like, "Homosexuals can be Christians and still remain Homosexuals," or that "Jesus is Not really God," or that they personally "spoke to God in a unknown tongue last Sunday." Because they forsaken the Word and are blinded and deceived by their own lusts, feelings, teachers, or what seems right in their own eyes. Can Homosexuals be Christians? Is Homosexuality a Sin? Of course it is sin, and God says no they cannot inherit the Kingdom. Did I say that or did God say that? It is only the sinful prideful nature of fallen man that insists on denying such an obvious truth. It is better to humbly let God lead, rather than attempt to be our own god. All false Christians have the inherent pridefulness where they will not receive reproof of God by His Word. Just as the Scribes and Pharisees who knew the scriptures well, but they didn't know God, and so all their learning was useless as far as coming to truth.
2nd Timothy 3:7

"ever learning, and yet never able to come to the knowledge of TRUTH".
The acceptance of homosexuality is in the spirit of disobedience, not the Spirit of truth. It is a rebellious, haughty and lifted up spirit, not the broken and contrite spirit that receives God's truth. And most of all, it shows no spirit to do as 2nd Corinthians 13:5 exhorts. To examine ourselves with God's Word, and prove ourselves that we are truly in the faith, not just blindly following what we want to follow. These exhortations of God roll off many professed Christians' like water rolling off the back of a duck. They simply cannot seem to comprehend the truth that when they are reading scripture, it is actually God talking. It's not the writer's opinion, it's not a private interpretation, it's divinely inspired truth that God "fully expects" us to be obedient to.
So let us open our hearts to receive God's truth concerning Homosexuality. Society cannot define God's laws or change His immutable principles. The only way we will arrive at a Biblical consensus concerning this question of homosexuality is by "receiving" everything God has declared about it throughout His Holy Word. Christians need to make the effort and find the time to study the Bible with the mind of Christ that they are open to receive what it says. As bible believers we must all examine ourselves, read, think, judge, and pray, and God will enlighten anyone on the subject who is "honestly" seeking truth. "Seek and ye shall find" is a faithful promise. Let us then preach the unadulterated truth of scripture, and not the compromises and blasphemies that often pass for the gospel in our day.

And may the Lord who is rich in mercy and longsuffering, give us the wisdom to discern His truth, and the strength to make correct judgments and endure in time of trial

Re: Wel homo zijn, niet dóén, bekering mogelijk?

Geplaatst: 07 nov 2009, 13:46
door Lourens
:bobo :bobo

Re: Wel homo zijn, niet dóén, bekering mogelijk?

Geplaatst: 07 nov 2009, 14:04
door PvS
jvdg schreef:Ik kan haast niet geloven dat er nog gezichtspunten naar voren kunnen worden gebracht die ons op andere gedachten kunnen brengen.

De boodschap is toch, simpel weergegeven, dat voor elke zonde (behoudens die ene zonde) vergeving uit genade te verkrijgen is, mits men niet moedwillig doorgaat op dat pad der zonde.

In het kader van dit topic wens ik allen die met deze strijd te maken hebben, Gods genadiglijke ondersteuning toe in die zware strijd.
:lock

Re: Wel homo zijn, niet dóén, bekering mogelijk?

Geplaatst: 07 nov 2009, 14:10
door Afgewezen
Omdat jvdg haast niet kan geloven dat er nog nieuwe gezichtspunten naar voren kunnen worden gebracht, moet er maar een slotje op?
Hmm... :jongle

Re: Wel homo zijn, niet dóén, bekering mogelijk?

Geplaatst: 07 nov 2009, 14:38
door PvS
Alexander CD schreef: Can Homosexuals be Christians? This precept of God is unambiguous, concise, and plainly stated. And it bridges on the nonsensical to hear some people attempt to defeat the creator's condemnation of homosexuality. According to the law of God, this activity of a man lying sexually with another man, is a [towebah] or abomination. In other words, it's something that is blatantly unclean and disgusting to God. This Hebrew word literally means something loathsome or detestable. So if we are to be led by the authority of the Holy scriptures, we must accept that homosexuality is something that is unnatural and abhorrent to God because it is against order of creation. Anyone attempting to make a defense of this act by claiming that it is not really sin, or that this merely addresses ritualistic abomination, has no real concept of the biblical principle that "God's Word is not subject to our private or personal interpretations."
Afgewezen schreef:Omdat jvdg haast niet kan geloven dat er nog nieuwe gezichtspunten naar voren kunnen worden gebracht, moet er maar een slotje op?
Hmm... :jongle
Dan wachten wij op de nieuwe gezichtspunten die jij misschien naar voren wilt brengen?