memento: you say that man must come to God. True, it is our duty to repent. However, Christ makes it clear that none can come to Him unless God draws him. The Bible also makes it clear that by nature we hate God and will not come unto Him for repentance. Philpot (the soundest and greatest divine I've ever read) makes it very clear that all the promises are for the regenerated sinner only. For all of them, and for none but them. All that thirst are called. And none but those that thirst. Do the unregenerate thirst? They may be very unhappy and miserable, but at most they want to be delivered from hell, not from their sins. Their thirst arises from self-love, and, were they to "accept" an "offered" Christ, they will only love Him for having saved them from hell, not for having restored them to God and forgiven their sins.
Let us never forget that the glory and honour of God, also in the work of salvation, are more important than that of man.
cannabis schreef:memento: you say that man must come to God. True, it is our duty to repent. However, Christ makes it clear that none can come to Him unless God draws him. The Bible also makes it clear that by nature we hate God and will not come unto Him for repentance. Philpot (the soundest and greatest divine I've ever read) makes it very clear that all the promises are for the regenerated sinner only. For all of them, and for none but them. All that thirst are called. And none but those that thirst. Do the unregenerate thirst? They may be very unhappy and miserable, but at most they want to be delivered from hell, not from their sins. Their thirst arises from self-love, and, were they to "accept" an "offered" Christ, they will only love Him for having saved them from hell, not for having restored them to God and forgiven their sins.
Let us never forget that the glory and honour of God, also in the work of salvation, are more important than that of man.
als jij gelijk zou hebben dan zou de kananese vrouw niet zalig zijn geworden. Ze kwam namelijk niet met haar zonden maar met de kwaal van haar kind.
I'll book the Greenhill book as you suggest. I've read other things of the same author and am always struck by the deep sprituality and wisdom of the old Puritans. And they remain so relevant. What a stark contradiction with many who call themselves Puritans today. I recently read JR Beeke's work on Reformed Piety (or something like that), and he makes bungling work of it. He has the audacity of equating Dr. Kuiper with JC Philpot. Either the man is ignorant or he is sucessfully pretending to be.
Two points:
First, Many of the Psalms seem to speak of outward trials and deliverances. God often used outward trials to bring David (and other poets) to God. The woman had an outward trial and brought her case before God. Recall, however, how she came to God. The woman had self-knowledge and faith. I think she was probably a saved sinner before she came. Some came to Christ only because they knew He could heal. I dont think these would be said to have come in faith. Remember that faith and presumption are two very different things.
Second, Do you think that all those who Christ healed were saved? (I'm not saying the Canaanitish woman wasnt.)
Two points:
First, Many of the Psalms seem to speak of outward trials and deliverances. God often used outward trials to bring David (and other poets) to God. The woman had an outward trial and brought her case before God. Recall, however, how she came to God. The woman had self-knowledge and faith. I think she was probably a saved sinner before she came. Some came to Christ only because they knew He could heal. I dont think these would be said to have come in faith. Remember that faith and presumption are two very different things.
Second, Do you think that all those who Christ healed were saved? (I'm not saying the Canaanitish woman wasnt.)
Als je dat denkt, kun je beter even Lukas 17:11-19 lezen: Tien melaatsen riepen tot God, en werden genezen, een keerde terug in dankbaarheid, negen hadden genoeg aan een uitwendige genezing.
Two points:
First, Many of the Psalms seem to speak of outward trials and deliverances. God often used outward trials to bring David (and other poets) to God. The woman had an outward trial and brought her case before God. Recall, however, how she came to God. The woman had self-knowledge and faith. I think she was probably a saved sinner before she came. Some came to Christ only because they knew He could heal. I dont think these would be said to have come in faith. Remember that faith and presumption are two very different things.
Second, Do you think that all those who Christ healed were saved? (I'm not saying the Canaanitish woman wasnt.)
what means the word presumption?
ik ga weer verder in het nederlands omdat je dat blijkbaar goed beheerst en ik engels wat minder.
Jij denkt erbij wat er niet bij staat. Maar goed, ik denk ook wel dat zij een kind van God was. Maar laten we dan een ander voorbeeld noemen. De Samaritaanse vrouw. Ze wilde levend water om niet meer te hoeven putten, ze kreeg het echte water om niet. Er is geen goede reden in een mens om God te zoeken. Zelfs dat is uitgesloten. Maar blijkbaar is dat voor de Heere geen belemmering. Ik wil niet af van het feit dat het een eenzijdig Gods werk is. Wat ik wel graag zou willen is dat er gepredikt wordt dat een ieder die de Heere zoekt zalig zal worden. Mensen die dan het nodig vinden om gelijk te zeggen dat God dat willen en werken werkt wantrouw ik. Wat is de reden daarvan? Als ze het willen ontkrachten dan hebben ze in mij een tegenstander.
Nee dat denk ik niet, ik wil alleen maar wijzen op 9 melaatsen.
Cannabis, je haalt Philpot aan, maar ik kan met hetzelfde gemak Spurgeon aanhalen. Met citeren komen we in dit geval niet verder.
Ik stel dat in een goede preek het volgende gebeurt:
1. De mens word gewezen op zijn verloren staat. Dat hij persoonlijk verloren is, en dat als hij zo doorgaat hij voor eeuwig verloren blijft. Jij gaat verloren. Dat is de boodschap van de wet, die tot een ieder komt
2. Maar daar moet het niet bij blijven. Hierop hoort te volgen: Als je je bekeerd (repent), en gelooft, zal God je aannemen. Niet dat wij uit onszelf kúnnen geloven en bekeren, maar slechts door een weg van proberen zullen wij de onmogelijkheid daarvan inzien. We kunnen wel wachten totdat God begint, maar dan doen we geen recht aan de ernst van de oproep die in Gods woord staat. Nee, wie tot God gaat zal Hij nimmer uitwerpen, ook al moet zo iemand misschien nog leren dat hij Christus nodig heeft, al moet hem nog alles wat hij heeft uit handen geslagen worden. Maar God wíl en zál het leren aan een ieder die tot Hem komt. Alles wat je ontbreekt wil God mild en overvloedig geven, als je erom smeekt.
Jacob: Go ahead in Dutch. Posting in Dutch is a real pain for me, reading it is easy.
Presumption is something like inbeelding.
I agree that all who seek God, will be saved. Where we may differ is what it means to seek God, and how the seeking starts. None who truly come to Him will be cast out. None can come to Him unless drawn by Him. But I agree that preaching should not only focus on predestination. I also agree that some of the criticism levelled at my denomination regarding this point is quite justifiable. How the critics would like to see it changed, however, is often not justifiable.
People who say that God must work every holy desire in the soul are giving credit where it is due. Only by the Spirit working in the soul can the soul do anything pleasing to God. Where else would you place credit? Whitefield wrote: "my holiest prayers are so full of sin they need to be washed in the blood of Jesus." Obviously he didn't see much good in himself.
jacob schreef:
Jij denkt erbij wat er niet bij staat. Maar goed, ik denk ook wel dat zij een kind van God was. Maar laten we dan een ander voorbeeld noemen. De Samaritaanse vrouw. Ze wilde levend water om niet meer te hoeven putten, ze kreeg het echte water om niet. Er is geen goede reden in een mens om God te zoeken. Zelfs dat is uitgesloten. Maar blijkbaar is dat voor de Heere geen belemmering. Ik wil niet af van het feit dat het een eenzijdig Gods werk is. Wat ik wel graag zou willen is dat er gepredikt wordt dat een ieder die de Heere zoekt zalig zal worden. Mensen die dan het nodig vinden om gelijk te zeggen dat God dat willen en werken werkt wantrouw ik. Wat is de reden daarvan? Als ze het willen ontkrachten dan hebben ze in mij een tegenstander.
De Kananese vrouw was een kind van God, want Christus zei dat haar geloof groot was. Bij de Samaritaanse vrouw is dat anders, tijdens het gesprek met Christus werd ze aan haar zonden ontdekt. Ik vraag me af als haar begeerte naar het levende water, waar ze volgens mij de geestelijke strekking toen nog niet van begreep, niet spottend bedoeld heeft. Ik ben op mn werk en kan niet even Henry of Gill er bij pakken
1. God does not accept a person because of his faith. Faith "makes true" for us, in time, what was always true from eternity. Faith does not make just, as the Reformers and many old fathers, and even good-old Joe Beeke thinks. It pronounces us just. Christ's blood and righteousness alone can make just. Hence the Reformers stumbled over the book of James, thinking that it taught salvation by works as works are said to justify. Again, James only meant that good works pronounce the sinner just, or give him/herself evidence, reassurance, that they are just. You dutchmen have two words for it, which we lack in English/ We say justify, you rechtvaardigmaking and rechtvaardiging. The difference is obvious. Pardon my spelling if it is wrong, by the way.
2. It is our duty to live a holy life before God, doing His will, keeping His commandments, loving Him with every thought and action. So we must indeed do our utmost to try to repent and live according to God's will. That is not the same as accepting Christ, however. Nor is it our duty to believe that Christ is our Saviour. It is our duty to believe all that God has revealed to us, also that Christ is the Saviour.
3. How do people come to God of their own accord? Why would we want to? To be saved from hell? Or because it grieves us so very deeply that we have offended a loving, infinitely glorious God? It the first is our only motive, then God will never accept us. If the latter is our greatest motive, then God will never reject us, for then it is His own work.
I think Gallio is right when he wonders how the women spoke of the "living water". But I am at work too, and dont have Gill here either. Anyone care to google him? All of Gill is on the web.
If the OGG and the GGiN are to join, why dont the GGiN BV hop on board too? Any GGiN BV out there? Any ideas about returning to the fold? Your group has seen some major changes of late, with the passing of Rev. vd Berg, etc. Has there been talks of joining with other right-side-of-the-spectrum groups? Forgive me if I dont know what is current, I'm far away from the stage and miss out on the prime-time action.