Een paar vragen voor trinitariers
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Adje
Een paar vragen voor trinitariers
Je bent moslim? Ik vind het op zich best om over verschillende dingen van de islam te discusseren, maar dan moet het wel op een goede manier gaan, en niet van jou kant door alleen maar links te plaatsen. Geef kort je mening (bij Daniel bijvoorbeeld), dan komt er heus wel reactie!
Here you pose us trinitians with a very complex and ambigue list of questions, for which more than just a single posting and a single study will do, but like you said, we shouldn't use our ejections button called mystery, for with mystery everything is explained, yet nothing. I believe the character of God can be explained, but God has revealed himself to us in a way we can understand. Some things are harder than others, and the Bible even tells us some things will never be explained in this life, but will be revealed to us in a later phase of being. Nevertheless this too would be a eject button too easy to use. Let's at least give it a try!
1. Does the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit all have one substance?
Do you believe man exists in body, spirit and soul? Which one is the you-you? The body, because it's visible with our material eyes? Or maybe the spirit, because that's our link with the divine? Or perhaps the soul, because that's where our intrinsic self is stored? God is the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, bound together in perfect harmony (i.e. communication and love). Is it to be explained as a team, a three-pack? No, it's more complex than that. Neither is either one of the Trinity appointed to a task that resembles the seperation of 'task' in humans by body, spirit and soul, though if you do want to make this direct link (instead of the indirect link I want to make with it) than the Holy Spirit should be the spirit in man, the Father should be the soul in man, and the Son would be the body in man.
Furthermore is 'substance' the wrong definition of the being of this trinity. A substance implies a visibility, somehow, and location in space and time. But it's not a substance in this way, it's a being - beyond the horizon of our comprehensability when it comes to visualise the trinity in human terms.
So they're common substance is there harmonious relationship, so close they're one.
2. If the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit all have one substance what makes the Father distinct from the Son, and the Son distinct from the Holy Spirit, and the Holy Spirit distinct from the Father?
What do you expect us to name here? A color? A characteristic? If anything a distinction would be the way the trinity appears to humans: the Holy Spirit defines a 'function' of God that the Father and the Son don't, and so on. Their distinction thus lies in the way God - the Trinity - appears to man.
3. If the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit all have one substance, what makes that one substance to be three persons [Father, Son, and Holy Spirit]?
Three 'distinctive' persons you mean? Like I said: their function towards man (though function is not the exact right word) makes them distinct, their perfect harmony in love and communication makes them One.
4. How is it that we have three [Father, Son, and Holy Spirit] that are one, and yet one that is not three [Father, Son, and Holy Spirit]?
Because the alternative structure you propose has no ending. God is a Person, in character shaped as a trinity: One God, three distinct outlets, but all the Same once again.
5. Does the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit all have one Spirit, and yet each person is a Spirit?
God is not a spirit, but a God. Has He got one Spirit? Yes, the Holy Spirit? This question translated to the situation of man would be: man has body, spirit and soul. Do all have one soul, or is each of them a soul? The question makes no sense.
6. Does the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit all have one Mind, and yet each person thinks for themselves?
They are One, so they have one mind. The question should be: do they think (in the way we think)?
7. Does the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit [if they are all one substance] all have one Will (Mark 14:36)?
They have the same will, because of their harmony.
8. Does God have one personality or does he have three personalities [M.P.D.]?
God is one person, that's why he can be a personal God. Does he have a personality? On a Godly level he probably does, but you can't answer this question because there's no comparison: there are no other gods with personalities to see what the personality of God is.
9. When the statement is made by a Trinitarian “three in oneâ€
1. Does the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit all have one substance?
Do you believe man exists in body, spirit and soul? Which one is the you-you? The body, because it's visible with our material eyes? Or maybe the spirit, because that's our link with the divine? Or perhaps the soul, because that's where our intrinsic self is stored? God is the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, bound together in perfect harmony (i.e. communication and love). Is it to be explained as a team, a three-pack? No, it's more complex than that. Neither is either one of the Trinity appointed to a task that resembles the seperation of 'task' in humans by body, spirit and soul, though if you do want to make this direct link (instead of the indirect link I want to make with it) than the Holy Spirit should be the spirit in man, the Father should be the soul in man, and the Son would be the body in man.
Furthermore is 'substance' the wrong definition of the being of this trinity. A substance implies a visibility, somehow, and location in space and time. But it's not a substance in this way, it's a being - beyond the horizon of our comprehensability when it comes to visualise the trinity in human terms.
So they're common substance is there harmonious relationship, so close they're one.
2. If the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit all have one substance what makes the Father distinct from the Son, and the Son distinct from the Holy Spirit, and the Holy Spirit distinct from the Father?
What do you expect us to name here? A color? A characteristic? If anything a distinction would be the way the trinity appears to humans: the Holy Spirit defines a 'function' of God that the Father and the Son don't, and so on. Their distinction thus lies in the way God - the Trinity - appears to man.
3. If the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit all have one substance, what makes that one substance to be three persons [Father, Son, and Holy Spirit]?
Three 'distinctive' persons you mean? Like I said: their function towards man (though function is not the exact right word) makes them distinct, their perfect harmony in love and communication makes them One.
4. How is it that we have three [Father, Son, and Holy Spirit] that are one, and yet one that is not three [Father, Son, and Holy Spirit]?
Because the alternative structure you propose has no ending. God is a Person, in character shaped as a trinity: One God, three distinct outlets, but all the Same once again.
5. Does the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit all have one Spirit, and yet each person is a Spirit?
God is not a spirit, but a God. Has He got one Spirit? Yes, the Holy Spirit? This question translated to the situation of man would be: man has body, spirit and soul. Do all have one soul, or is each of them a soul? The question makes no sense.
6. Does the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit all have one Mind, and yet each person thinks for themselves?
They are One, so they have one mind. The question should be: do they think (in the way we think)?
7. Does the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit [if they are all one substance] all have one Will (Mark 14:36)?
They have the same will, because of their harmony.
8. Does God have one personality or does he have three personalities [M.P.D.]?
God is one person, that's why he can be a personal God. Does he have a personality? On a Godly level he probably does, but you can't answer this question because there's no comparison: there are no other gods with personalities to see what the personality of God is.
9. When the statement is made by a Trinitarian “three in oneâ€
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roseline
Het woord drie-eenheid zou ik zelf niet zo snel in de mond nemen omdat het niet in de bijbel staat.
Maar Madtice, waarin was Jezus één met de Vader? Joh. 10:30 Naar het vlees - dat aan de zonde gelijk was (Rom. 8:3), waarvanuit Hij verzocht werd (Heb. 4:15, Jac. 1:12-15) - of naar de geest?
Groeten, Rose.
Maar Madtice, waarin was Jezus één met de Vader? Joh. 10:30 Naar het vlees - dat aan de zonde gelijk was (Rom. 8:3), waarvanuit Hij verzocht werd (Heb. 4:15, Jac. 1:12-15) - of naar de geest?
Groeten, Rose.
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roseline
Precies. Naar de geest der heiligheid is Hij verklaard Gods Zoon te zijn in kracht, schrijft Paulus. Hij had goddelijke natuur, echter dat kwam niet vanuit zijn vlees - ieder mens wordt verzocht tot zonde vanuit zijn begeerte en die begeerte woont in het vlees (Jac. 1:12-15, Gal. 5:24) - en Jezus werd ook verzocht (bijv. Matt. 4). God kan niet verzocht worden tot het kwade (Jac. 1:13), heeft dus ook geen vlees met vlezelijke begeerten. Jezus was dus nÃet één met zijn Vader naar het vlees. Dat is onmogelijk. Zijn vlees was door en door menselijk en had niets goddelijks, net zoals ons vlees niets goddelijks heeft, maar moet sterven - aan het kruis. In Jezus' leven had het vlees echter totaal géén macht. Hij overwon namelijk in elke verzoeking.Origineel geplaatst door Madtice
Ik denk dat je daar een goed punt hebt, Rose. Jezus was mens in het vlees, maar Zoon van God in de geest, en dus één met de Vader in de geest. Is dat wat je bedoelt?
Hij was dus niet één met de Vader naar het vlees. Wèl naar de geest. God is Geest. Jezus' geest stemde volledig in met Gods Geest - zoals er staat van 'de kinderen Gods' in Romeinen 8: 'Want de Geest getuigt met onze geest dat wij kinderen Gods zijn.' Jezus' geest was één met die van God. D.w.z. eensgezind, Hij had de gezindheid van de Geest, in elke situatie. De Vader en de Zoon deelden dezelfde Geest. De Geest Gods. Jezus' lichaam was daar een omhulsel van, het was de tempel van de Geest Gods. Hij had een menselijk karakter, menselijke eigenschappen, menselijke verzoekingen - maar deze heersten nÃet over Hem. De Geest Gods deed zijn werk in Hem. Daarom kon Hij volmaakte werken verrichten en kwam goddelijke natuur tevoorschijn: Liefde, vrede, blijdschap, lankmoedigheid... Dat is de vrucht van de Geest! De Geest waar Jezus tijdens zijn dagen in het vlees vervuld van was, en die Hem liet zien wat de Vader van Hem verlangde. Hij deed niets uit zichzelf: Alles wat Hij deed kwam uit de Vader! En dat door het werk van de Geest.
Tja. Ik vermijd de hele term, omdat die niet in de bijbel staat en het geheel er ook niet duidelijker op maakt. Het Woord is niet in één term te vatten. Het is zoveel belangrijker om te begrijpen waarom en waarin de Vader en de Zoon één zijn. Dat is namelijk mogelijk: Door de Geest.En Drieëenheid is dan een verzamelnaam voor de drie 'functies' van God die wij terug vinden in de Bijbel?
[Veranderd op 9/1/03 door roseline]