Three religious fables by Pastor Don Fortner

[Kaw]

Sometimes I have the feeling that the grace of God must be that sovereign that our choices doens't matter. They do matter. You actualy have to choose for God and start living as God's child. You have to repent. If you don't repent you will face hell. And no we are able to repent, because God will not ask us impossible things. The people of Ninevé did repent and will judge the people that have seen Jesus and His work and did not repent. The bible tells us that. Are we able to repent? Yes! Will we repent without God and His blessing? Never! Esau and Nebukadnesar did not repent. Did they want to repent? No and they never did. Are there people who want to repent and cannot? No, they simply don't exist. Everyone who wants to repent his touched by God's grace and will finish his/her journey. So there is no difference between God's predestination and our will to repent. Keep that in mind when you see the next 10.000 artikels about that magic souvereign grace of God and that silly Arminian guy. It's just a cover up of the disposal of the most basic rules of ancient reformed theology: salvation trough believe. It's not salvation trough predestiation. Yeah, that would be lovely. We can do what we want. Salvation is a lottery ticket.

[Kaw]

Brother Kaw, not sure from your response if you are pro or con.

I'm con Arminius and I'm also con modern orthodox reformed theology. They are actualy both a lie. Just a human image of God.

[Bert Mulder]

Sometimes I have the feeling that the grace of God must be that sovereign that our choices doens't matter. They do matter. You actualy have to choose for God and start living as God's child. You have to repent. If you don't repent you will face hell. And no we are able to repent, because God will not ask us impossible things. The people of Ninevé did repent and will judge the people that have seen Jesus and His work and did not repent. The bible tells us that. Are we able to repent? Yes! Will we repent without God and His blessing? Never! Esau and Nebukadnesar did not repent. Did they want to repent? No and they never did. Are there people who want to repent and cannot? No, they simply don't exist. Everyone who wants to repent his touched by God's grace and will finish his/her journey. So there is no difference between God's predestination and our will to repent. Keep that in mind when you see the next 10.000 artikels about that magic souvereign grace of God and that silly Arminian guy. It's just a cover up of the disposal of the most basic rules of ancient reformed theology: salvation trough believe. It's not salvation trough predestiation. Yeah, that would be lovely. We can do what we want. Salvation is a lottery ticket.

Brother Kaw, you were speaking about half truths being full lies. Be careful not to fall into the same error. It is possible, you know, to fully maintain Gods sovereinty, without taking away any of man's responsibility. And the key to that is that through the fall, man denied God, and lost his first estate. Man was able to serve God perfectly. So God is just in asking of man what he can (now) not perform. And God has chosen out of the whole human race those whom He has predestined to believe in Him. And because of that, the call comes to EVERYONE:

Repent, be converted, and believe! For God worketh in us both to will and to do, after His good pleasure.


And this is only possible because Christ died for His people. And his satisfaction was sufficient for the sins of the whole world. But he did not die for those He did not buy, just as He did not pray for them, but only for those given Him by the Father.

[Kaw]

Sometimes I have the feeling that the grace of God must be that sovereign that our choices doens't matter. They do matter. You actualy have to choose for God and start living as God's child. You have to repent. If you don't repent you will face hell. And no we are able to repent, because God will not ask us impossible things. The people of Ninevé did repent and will judge the people that have seen Jesus and His work and did not repent. The bible tells us that. Are we able to repent? Yes! Will we repent without God and His blessing? Never! Esau and Nebukadnesar did not repent. Did they want to repent? No and they never did. Are there people who want to repent and cannot? No, they simply don't exist. Everyone who wants to repent his touched by God's grace and will finish his/her journey. So there is no difference between God's predestination and our will to repent. Keep that in mind when you see the next 10.000 artikels about that magic souvereign grace of God and that silly Arminian guy. It's just a cover up of the disposal of the most basic rules of ancient reformed theology: salvation trough believe. It's not salvation trough predestiation. Yeah, that would be lovely. We can do what we want. Salvation is a lottery ticket.

Brother Kaw, you were speaking about half truths being full lies. Be careful not to fall into the same error. It is possible, you know, to fully maintain Gods sovereinty, without taking away any of man's responsibility. And the key to that is that through the fall, man denied God, and lost his first estate. Man was able to serve God perfectly. So God is just in asking of man what he can (now) not perform. And God has chosen out of the whole human race those whom He has predestined to believe in Him. And because of that, the call comes to EVERYONE:

Repent, be converted, and believe! For God worketh in us both to will and to do, after His good pleasure.


And this is only possible because Christ died for His people. And his satisfaction was sufficient for the sins of the whole world. But he did not die for those He did not buy, just as He did not pray for them, but only for those given Him by the Father.

Brother Bert,
Yes, you are speaking the truth, but I believe Arminius was able to do the same up to some point
But lets look to the results of Dutch (I cant speek for your churches because I have no knowledge about them) reformed orthodox churches. They are filled to the top with people who are in fact as faithless as the people without churches. They baptise their children without believe, just by tradition and they take no part in the holy supper because they cannot testify about they are living a live in the grace of God. And the preachers (dominees) take that as normal. A fully filled supper is suspicious. In my humble opinion thats the prove that something went wrong in modern orthodox reformed theology and I believe that the grace of God is taken that sovereign that the choice of the human aparently doesn't matter anymore. Yeah I have to believe and to repent, but you also tell me that I can't because of the sovereign grace of God, so basicaly I have to do nothing at all? Dutch preachers will say in that case: You have to pray for a new heart. Yeah, thats simple. Use your lips to pray for a new heart and use your heart to keep yourself on the road to hell. That's a simple task. People like that.

[mayflower]

Brother Bert,
Yes, you are speaking the truth, but I believe Arminius was able to do the same up to some point
But lets look to the results of Dutch (I cant speek for your churches because I have no knowledge about them) reformed orthodox churches. They are filled to the top with people who are in fact as faithless as the people without churches. They baptise their children without believe, just by tradition and they take no part in the holy supper because they cannot testify about they are living a live in the grace of God. And the preachers (dominees) take that as normal. A fully filled supper is suspicious. In my humble opinion thats the prove that something went wrong in modern orthodox reformed theology and I believe that the grace of God is taken that sovereign that the choice of the human aparently doesn't matter anymore. Yeah I have to believe and to repent, but you also tell me that I can't because of the sovereign grace of God, so basicaly I have to do nothing at all? Dutch preachers will say in that case: You have to pray for a new heart. Yeah, thats simple. Use your lips to pray for a new heart and use your heart to keep yourself on the road to hell. That's a simple task. People like that.

Dear Kaw,

I really understand your difficulty, esspecially from a experience background. To be honest i think that the example's you just wrote (like the passive way of being a church membership) has nothing at all to do with Gospel living, it even is a great damage and it hinders the proclamation of the good news of the Gospel.

I know that in the past, when the great baptist preacher John Gill, from whom they said he was a high calvinist (see avatar) was preaching, alot of people got converted and even many other Pastor of denominations like Anglicans (Toplady) and presbyterians came to listen to Doctor Gill. And by his orthodox high calvinistic teaching and preaching there was "life" in the church.

And today i know from friends whom are coming from orthodox presbyterians background, and are all 5 piont calvinist, they have assurance of faith, and partaking of the Lord's supper, and so many of their congregation.

I think that these example's that you wrote is i think also typical dutch, because a few eeks ago i was talking with a lady who was born in the U.K , grew up in a strict-baptist church, got married with a man from the Oud-gereformeerde gemeente, and we were talking about these issue's, and she even said that in the strict baptist church (were she grew up) the fellowship and partaking of the Lord's supper is quete different, while the strict-baptist are pretty experimental.

[Kaw]

and she even said that in the strict baptist church (were she grew up) the fellowship and partaking of the Lord's supper is quete different, while the strict-baptist are pretty experimental.

I'm sorry, I don't follow you there.

I also know living churches in the Netherlands being 100% calvinist. But the difference in preaching is that they take believe as the centre of their preaching while other churches choose predestination as their startingpoint believing that it is the right way to preach sovereign grace. Those predestination orriented churches are the churches with globaly big problems on the subjects of assurance of faith, and partaking of the Lord's supper, while placing the believe-orriented churches under suspicion of Arminianism. That's the fight. I also believe that the grace of God has no boundaries in its sovereignty, but in my opinion it is a widely abused subject to stay away from a living believe. While taking that in consideration I try to launch some rebellion on this subject to discuss the practical function of this theology in moder orthodox reformed churches. If I follow your reports of foreign churches I get the feeling that this is mainly a problem in the Netherlands and England and Canada have no problems on this subject?

[mayflower]

Those predestination orriented churches are the churches with globaly big problems on the subjects of assurance of faith, and partaking of the Lord's supper.

Myself i did not grew up and i also not a member of what you called predestination orriented churches (iam a member of a evangelical baptist church in Limburg), maybe that Bert can share something about the PRCA churches, concerning assurances of faith and if the majority or less of majority partakes the Lord's supper.

[Bert Mulder]

Brother Kaw, while the preaching in the PRCA is very much predestination oriented, after all we believe that God's covenant is governed by election, by the grace of God we do not have the problems many of the "bevindelijke" churches in the Netherlands do.

We believe that God comes to us with a command. That command is to repent and believe. Peter at Pentacost did not say to the people there: Pray that God will come in your heart, and that maybe someday he will grant you, and in the meantime live a good christian life. No. Instead he came with te simple "Repent and Believe!"

Also, we believe that the promises of God are for believers and their seed. We do not treat our children as little heathens with whom we do mission work. We do our utmost to bring them up in the fear of His Name. Also, we believe that God normally converts the elect of our children while they are still young, in infancy. The conversion of Saul on the road to Damascus was an exception, as Paul himself also makes plain. God does not normally work that way with those growing up in the sphere of His covenant.

So also, contrary to the practice in the "bevindelijke" churches, when our young people do confession of faith this is not an academic exercise of their historic faith. Instead it is a confession that Christ lives in their hearts. And as such, having done confession of faith, they are obliged to worship the Lord by partaking of His Holy Supper, as He has commanded.

Brother Kaw, I want to encourage you. I notice you are going through a great struggle, a struggle with which in many ways I am familiar from personal experience. Hold unto the faith. Do not get discouraged. And with you it is my firm belief that many of the churches in my old fatherland are on the road to dead orthodoxy. They have a form of godliness, but lack the power thereof.