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I will answer your question jvg and then leave it unless I am asked or invited to comment further.
G'day Jvdg,jvdg schreef:Bert and Flyn, for a good understanding of the dispute arosen, please will you inform us about the "crux" of this dispute? Please in understandable english.
I dont speak Dutch, but I see Burt has posted in Dutch, and its in a forum for english speakers. Can someone translate Burt's Dutch comments for me please?
The central issues are:
Does God love all men?
God God extend common Grace to all men?
Does God will and desire the salvation of all men?
Does God offer the gospel to all men, which offer is a well-meant offer of grace to all?
So now by explanations. Love is affection, amor dei: To love is to delight in, to wish well to, to have an affection towards.
In this post I will address two of these four issues by way of quoting Reformed Authorities:
Does God love all men:
a' Brakel:
The Goodness of God
Goodness is the very opposite of harshness, cruelty, gruffness, severity, mercilessness–all of which are far removed from God. How unbecoming it is to have such thoughts about God! Such sinful emotions are found in man. The goodness of God, on the contrary, is the loveliness, benign character, sweetness, friendliness, kindness, and generosity of God. Goodness is the very essence of God's being, even if there were no creature to whom this could be manifested. "The good LORD pardon every one" (2 Chr.30:18); "Good and upright is the LORD: therefore will He teach sinners in the way" (Psa. 25:B); "There is none good but one, that is, God" (Mat. 19:17).
From this goodness issues forth lovingkindness and an inclination to bless His creatures. This is to the astonishment of all who take note of this, which explains why David exclaims twenty-six times in Ps. 136, "For His Mercy endureth for ever." In the following texts we read likewise. "Also unto Thee, 0 Lord, belongeth mercy" (Psa. 62:12); "All the paths of the LORD are mercy" (Psa. 25:10 ). From goodness and benevolence issues forth the doing of that which is good. "Thou art good, and doest good" (Psa. 119:68); "Rejoice the soul of Thy servant: and attend unto the voice of my supplications. For Thou Lord, art good, and ready to forgive; and plenteous in mercy unto all them that call upon Thee" (Psa. 86:4, 6, 5).
This goodness is of a general nature in reference to all God's creatures, since they are His creatures. "The LORD is good to all: and His tender mercies are over all is works" (Psa. 145:9); "The earth is full of the goodness of the LORD" (Psa. 33:5); "For He maketh His sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust" (Mat. 5:45). The goodness which is of a special or particular nature as it relates to God's children is thus expressed: 'Truly God is good to Israel, even to such as arc of a clean heart" (Psa. 73:l); "The LORD is good unto them that wait for Him, to the soul that seeketh Him" (Lam. 3:25). This goodness of God is the reason why a believer, even after many backslidings, is motivated by renewal to return unto the Lord. "The children of Israel shall return... and shall fear the LORD and His goodness" (Hosea 3:5); "But I have trusted in Thy mercy" (Psa. 13:5). This is why they call the Lord "the God of my mercy" (Psa. 59:10, 17). In this goodness they rejoice and this goodness they magnify. "I will sing of the mercies of the LORD for ever" (Psa. 89:l); "Praise ye the LORD. 0 give thanks unto the LORD; for He is good: for His mercy endureth for ever" (Psa. 106:l).
The Love of God Love is an essential attribute of God by which the Lord delights Himself in that which is good, it being well-pleasing to Him, and uniting Himself to it consistent with the nature of the object of His love. The love of God by definition is the loving God Himself, for which reason John states that "God is love" (1 John 4:s). When we view the love of God relative to its objects, however, several distinctions need to be made. We call this love natural when it refers to the manner in which God delights in Himself as the supreme manifestation of goodness. "For the Father loveth the Son" (John 5:20). We call this love volitional when it refers to the manner in which God delights in His creatures. And thus this love is either the love of benevolence or the love of His delight. The love of His benevolence is either general as it relates to the manner in which God delights in, desires to bless, maintains, and governs all His creatures by virtue of the fact that they are His creatures (Psa. 145:9), or it is special. This special love refers to God's eternal designation of the elect to be the objects of His special love and benevolence. This finds expression in the following texts, "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life" (John 3:16); "As Christ also loved the church, and gave Himself for it" (Eph. 5:25). The love of God's delight has the elect as its object as they are viewed in Christ, being clothed with His satisfaction and holiness perfect and complete in Him (Col. 2:lO); "According as he hath chosen us in Him... according to the good pleasure of His will... wherein He hath made us accepted in the Beloved" (Eph. 1:4-6).Wilhemus a’ Brakel, The Christian’s Reasonable Service, trans., by Bartel Elshout, (Ligonier, PA: Soli Deo Gloria Publ., 1992), 1:122-124.
David: So the Reformed have always maintained that God expresses a non-electing love to all mankind, and an electing love to the elect alone.
Does God desire the salvation of all men by will revealed:
1] VIII. (3) The question is not whether there is in God a will commanding and approving faith and the salvation of men; nor whether God in the gospel commands men to believe and repent if they wish to be saved; nor whether it pleases him for me to believe and be saved. For no one denies that God is pleased with the conversion and life of the sinner rather than with his death. We willingly subscribe to the Synod of Dort, which determines that “God sincerely and most truly shows in his word, what is pleasing to him; namely, that they who are called should come to him” (Acta Synodi Nationalis . . . Dordrechti [1620], Pt. I, p. 266). But the question is whether from such a will approving and commanding what men must do in order to obtain salvation, can be gathered any will or purpose of God by which he intended the salvation of all and everyone under the condition of faith and decreed to send Christ into the world for them. Hence it appears that they wander from the true order of the question who maintain that we treat here only of the will of approbation (euarestias), but not of the will of good pleasure (eudokias). It is evident that we treat not of that which God wishes to be done by us, but what he wills to do for the salvation of men and of the decree of sending Christ for them (which everyone sees belongs to the will of good pleasure [eudokias] and not to that of approbation [euarestias]). Turretin, Francis, Institutes of Elenctic Theology, (Phillipsburg: Presbyterian and Reformed Publishing Company, 1994) 1:397.
2] XVI. It is one thing to will reprobates to come (i.e., to command them to come and to desire it); another to will they should not come (i.e., to nill the giving them the power to come). God can in calling them will the former and yet not the latter without any contrariety because the former respects only the will of precept, while the latter respects the will of decree. Although these are diverse (because they propose diverse objects to themselves, the former the commanding of duty, but the latter the execution of the thing itself), still they are not opposite and contrary, but are in the highest degree consistent with each other in various respects. He does not seriously call who does not will the called to come (i.e., who does not command nor is pleased with his coming). But not he who does not will him to come whither he calls (i.e., did not intend and decree to come). For a serious call does not require that there should be an intention and purpose of drawing him, but only that there should be a constant will of commanding duty and bestowing the blessing upon him who performs it (which God most seriously wills). But if he seriously make known what he enjoins upon the man and what is the way of salvation and what is agreeable to himself, God does not forthwith make known what he himself intended and decreed to do. Nor, if among men, a prince or a legislator commands nothing which he does not will (i.e., does not intend should also be done by his subjects because he has not the power of effecting this in them), does it follow that such is the case with God, upon whom alone it depends not only to command but also to effect this in man. But if such a legislator could be granted among men, he would rightly be said to will that which he approves and commands, although he does not intend to effect it. Turretin, Francis, Institutes of Elenctic Theology, (Phillipsburg: Presbyterian and Reformed Publishing Company, 1994) 2:507-508.
3] XXI. The invitation to the wedding proposed in the parable (Mt. 22:1-14) teaches that the king wills (i.e., commands and desires) the invited to come and that this is their duty; but not that the king intends or has decreed that they should really come. Otherwise he would have given them the ability to come and would have turned their hearts. Since he did not do this, it is the surest sign that he did not will they should come in this way. When it is said “all things are ready” (Lk. 14:17), it is not straightway intimated an intention of God to give salvation to them, but only the sufficiency of Christ’s sacrifice. For he was prepared by God and offered on the cross as a victim of infinite merit to expiate the sins of men and to acquire salvation for all clothed in the wedding garment and flying to him (i.e., to the truly believing and repenting) that no place for doubting about the truth and perfection of his satisfaction might remain. Turretin, Francis, Institutes of Elenctic Theology, (Phillipsburg: Presbyterian and Reformed Publishing Company, 1994) 2:509.
David: Thus the Reformed have always maintained that God does by will revealed desire that all men be saved by complying to the commands and gospel offer. Yet by will decreed, he wills not to grant all men saving faith, but the elect.
I hope that helps. If you want to talk via email which is easier for me, email me at Flynn000 [at] Bellsouth.net
David